I started working on a design project with the guys from koding.com and we had the idea of a comic with halloween costumes that only programmers, IT guys or web developers would get… so I came up with this cheesy strip.
By the way, if you’re a web designer, developer, programmer (or all of the above), you should totally check their stuff. They give you a free Virtual Machine with EVERY programming language pre-installed so you can play around or create something awesome: koding.com
Opps…. I sometimes refer to my team us guys, that consists of men and women (great job guys!). Will use “Great job people!” from now on.
I just think the word guys feels more friendlier, and since you’re referring to our tight IT community – I don’t think its an issue here.
The first was the best “I’m not a bug, I’m a feature”
I feel a lot of things for Gayle; Respect, admiration, agreement… I don’t really feel sorry for her.
No hardship here, though clearly you are being sarcastic. I just disagreed with you, and thought that you were doing a bit of the old if the only tool you have is a hammer, everything looks like sexism. I actually defended you on a YouTube video you posted where people made many harsh comments, and I did assume it was largely fueled by sexism there, and I didnt like seeing that. Here, I think you’re off base, but hey, we will both survive this. Happy Halloween to you.
Again: I have never, ever heard someone use “IT guy” in referring to a woman. I have NO PROBLEM with saying “hey guys” or “you guys”, because I believe people actually use this in a gender neutral way. *IF* the English language evolved such that people were using “IT guys” in a gender neutral way, then I would have no problem with the term.
It’s interesting to me how you assume that I’m being too “sensitive” because of some sort of history sexism. Meanwhile, you fail to recognize your sensitivity to this issue due to your “hardship” from other people speaking up about sexism.
Uh… read that again. That 100% agrees with my opinion and, in fact, disagrees with yours.
“”You guys” is a familiar, all-inclusive way of addressing a group of men or women directly. … The singular “guy” is another animal. It refers to males. In most plural usages that are not directly addressing a group, this rule also applies.”
Read what I said above. Guys is gender neutral in the second person, but not in the third person.
See overwhelmingly accepted answer here: http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/11816/is-guy-gender-neutral it is my opinion that this is correct. Even if I am linguistically wrong, if you refer to a group who is overwhelmingly male, it is acceptable to address them as such. You wouldn’t refer to the cast of real housewives of X-state as the men and ladies of X, even though their husbands are part of the cast/show. IT is currently male dominated, but that doesn’t mean that the best of the bunch aren’t women. Folks just isn’t as commonly used word in most regions.
It’s a linguistic question that arose from you stating that the usage is inherently sexist. I say that it isn’t, so I only said you are too sensitive to mean that because sexism is a real thing, and I am sure you have suffered being a woman in tech who is clearly not afraid to speak up, that you may have a few raw nerves in regards to that, but that you are barking up the wrong tree here, and making something that to me is in no way a violation, to be about your cause. That irritated me because I am constantly seeing people on a soapbox about why they are at a disadvantage or treated unfairly in a venue that is inappropriate. Sometimes people just want to enjoy an article without politics.
You’re asking if I have heard someone refer to a woman, in the singular as an ‘X’ guy. The whole purpose of this discussion for me, is that non-singular usage of the term guys is generally unisex. I think you are inferring more from the IT term than the nurse term. If I heard someone say “I just came from the nurses office, and let me tell you, those guys are all stubborn”, I wouldn’t assume men, would you? Perhaps your own experiences of the tech industry being a majority men are factoring in to the way you receive the word?
Nope. People use “guys” in a gender neutral way in the second person, but not the third person.
I’m in tech, yet no one has EVER called me an IT guy or a tech guy. Because people do not in fact use it in a gender neutral way.
By the way, calling me “too sensitive” is sort of obnoxious. Do you realize that the disagreement we have here is about whether or not people use “IT guy” in a gender neutral way? There’s no sensitivity or emotion here. It’s a linguistic question.
There’s a separate question about whether, *if* people use IT guy in a gender-specific way, it would be problematic to use it here. It doesn’t sound like that’s what you’re disagreeing with though. Please don’t bring in emotional argument when it’s entirely irrelevant.
Nope. “You guys” and “hey guys” is in the second person. It happens to be used in a gender neutral way.
People do not use “IT guys” or “sales guys” in a gender neutral way. If people did, then I’d have no problem with the term (just as I have no problem with saying “you guys”). Have you ever heard someone refer to a woman as an IT guy? Why is it that it’s common place to say “IT guys” or “sales guys” (both male dominated) but not “nursing guys” or “marketing guys”? Why is it that when you hear “nursing guys” you think “guys in nursing”?
Again, wrong. IT guy means a man. IT guys is gender nonspecific. Stop harping on this here, bring it to a forum that is actually being sexist, you are making this about you and a cause when this is not the place, which is why I am pushing back against you so hard. It is selfish to do what you are doing.
Wrong. Just wrong. IT guys means IT people, just as hey you guys doesn’t mean ‘hey you men’. You are cherry picking connotation to suit your argument.
I disagree with you Gayle, I think you’re being too sensitive here. Women are referred to guys in a plural context as well, it’s not gender exclusive. This world is getting so PC that eventually we won’t even talk to one another in fear of insulting someone. That being said, there is a lot of sexism in the industry, you’re just off base in this case.
Have you *ever* heard someone say “IT guy” when referring a woman? I doubt it. “IT guy” is not gender neutral. I have NEVER heard anyone (at least of native English speakers) use “guy” **in the 3rd person** in a gender neutral way. Because it’s not. That’s not how people use the word “IT guys.”
Saying “IT guys” is synonymous with saying “IT men.”
I don’t think the author specifically decided to exclude women here. More likely, the author used this male-only term because he just happened to do so (lots of people say things like “IT guy” or “sales guy”). It’s a common expression. Because the vast majority of people in IT are male, it didn’t seem jarring to use this male-only term.
It says “IT people” in the title of the post. I’m not sure it could be any clearer that the later use of “IT guys” was intended to be gender neutral. Your point is an important one, but you seem to be wrong about this particular case.
that´s actually a handy thing to know, I thought it always just depended on the context. Thanks for the free lesson!
… sometimes I love Japanese, there are a million grammar rules but almost 0 exceptions, and altough it can be very ambigious because you can leave a lot (LOT!) of words away, it is extremely clear if you actually make complete sentences. It also doesn´t really have this specific problem: you can either say, group of people, group of men, or group of women… nothing in between XD
Not that Japanese is my native language either, but I am such an anime fan I studied Japanology before doing computer science XD I wanna get a degree in both and then go on to work on awesome JRPG´s in Japan :3 *ultimate life dream*
Anyway, I will remind this one. Thanx again! 😉
@edwardalchemist:disqus It wasn’t being used in a gender neutral way. I am a native English speaker :).
I don’t think the author thought, “I think I will write something gender specific here because I only intend to address men.” I think the author used a gender-specific term because it sounded perfectly natural to do so, and he didn’t really think through what he was implying.
It was a basically innocent mistake. Yes, one that’s a bit sexist, but one that many, many, many people make (including, I’m sure, myself sometimes). I do wish he’d just own up to it and fix it… maybe he’s not reading these comments though.
In English (or at least US English), “guys” is gender neutral in the second person but not in the third person. This is how people *use* the language, not the actual definitions (which might well be more strict). People will say “hey guys” or “you guys” or even just “guys, have you …?” when addressing a mixed gender group.
However, you will never hear someone say “nursing guys” (unless they are actually intending to refer to only men). It just sounds weird in a way that “sales guys” and “IT guys” doesn’t. If you heard someone say “nursing guys,” you** would immediately think, “wait, what? Only the few men in nursing?”
** Or at least you would if you were a native English speaker.
I am not a native speaker, but I was pretty sure that was exactly how it was used here… gender neutral. Especially because of the “people” in the title of the post.
Regardless, it’s still an awesome web comic off course, and I think this costumes wouldn’t just be awesome for halloween, they would also be awesome for an anime convention 😀 I always go to those because I am a huge otaku/love anime to death (mostly cute stuff XD), and all the peoples there are huge geeks D: This would be popular.
It’s obvious not all people who are geeky are guys tough. I mean, at those anime cons, and amongst my friends (I only have otaku friends :3), more than half of the people are girls XD
I am totally expecting some of these to be cosplayed to an anime convention if they get popular 😀
let your feminist style behind and enjoy the fun…
I’m not calling it discrimination, exactly. But saying “IT men” (which is what “IT guys” means) when you mean “IT people” implies that you think these terms are interchangeable.
The author said only “IT guys” (which means *men* specifically, not women) would get this comic. Presumably, he didn’t mean that IT women wouldn’t understand this comic. (And, if he did, then that’s really sexist.)
So then, what’s up with the choice of “IT guys”? Why not “IT people”?
It’s a language choice — and one that says “I presume that all IT people are men, so saying ‘IT guys’ is sufficient.”
Read what I said. I’m not calling the author sexist. I don’t think he’s a bad person. However, he used terminology that is sexist.
It happens. We’re all a bit sexist sometimes. The best way to respond is to recognize it, correct it, and learn from it.
And if you disagree, articulate *why.* What you did was just yell at someone and make condescending remarks. Do you have a reason why you disagree? Or are you just saying that I’m wrong because you don’t like to recognize that sexism happens and is real?
I think better would be “Microsoft-scoop”. A small, soft ice cream.
Hyper-link 😀 cool!
Continuing to use vocabulary that treats it as a boys’ club ensures that that number sadly stays the same. Computing and programming used to be an equal field with equal female influence and breakthroughs. There are some great articles/books on the marketing shifts that happened around the 50s based on views of perceived intellect/what a woman’s place was that led to how male-dominated it continues to be today.
I’ve only seen one woman in IT in my whole life 😉 so referring to male when speaking about IT is not so far from truth 😉
the django one is sooo not funny 😛
By the way as far as I understand there was no discriminationin the post, but respecting women needs to be done, regardless of this specific case.
That’s not s**t. IT is a field where we males tend to be stupidly skeptical and discriminatoryabout women. The truth is, there are no neural differences between males and women to prove the idiotic thesis that IT is not for women.
I feel sry for u Gayle! looking for feminist shit where there is none!!
Microsoft-serve? Did you mean “microsoft-server”?
In many situations, yes, it can be gender neutral. But not all.
It’s gender neutral when you say “hey guys” or “you guys” or some other form of addressing people in the second person.
However, when you say “those marketing guys,” you’re not using that in a gender neutral way.
People just don’t say “yeah, I talked with a couple guys from marketing today” when they mean that they talked with 3 women and a man.
I am not saying it’s male-only because that’s what “guys” technically means. I’m saying it’s gender-neutral because, in fact, that’s how people use it.
Imagine if I say “I talked with a couple nursing guys today.” You mean to tell me you wouldn’t think, “Oh, male nurses?”
It’s not sexist. “Guys”, in many situations, is a gender-neutral term. It can be used to refer to a group of only men, a mixed group of men and women, or a group of only women.
Just “people” (or “folks”). 🙂
«By using a male-only term to refer to what is a mixed-gender group»
In my native language (Italian) you must use a male term for mixed groups, because we don’t have neutral gender terms (well, almost none). How would you say it in English? I think I can learn something new from your comment. 😉
This is hilarious… but did you have to say IT *guys*? I’m sure you didn’t mean for it to be sexist — and I’m not calling you sexist — but writing that is.
While “guys” can be gender neutral when addressing a group of people in the second person (e.g., “hey guys”, “you guys”, etc), it’s not in that context. For example, you probably wouldn’t say “three guys” if you were referring to two men and a woman.
When you say “IT guys,” you are specifically referring to *male* IT people. In this context, I don’t think you meant to only refer to men (and if you did, that’s obviously sexist). So when you said “IT guys,” you’re ignoring all IT women — as though it’s okay to just assume that all people in IT are male.
Again, I’m not calling you specifically sexist. The language choice was though. By using a male-only term to refer to what is a mixed-gender group, you’re making a statement that this whole group is male.
I laughed so hard. I’m not even a programmer. It’s a tough one, but the Internet Explorer may be my favorite.
When will you know for sure?
Tarantino’s film.
Can someone explain to me the Django joke? I know what Django is, but I don’t get the joke :/
I’m saying I’m basic and save some bucks tonight
Fantastic
A stylish sheet that’s cascading?
Sorry, just killed the joke….
xD
Best “Lame post of the year” entry!
lol
apache server lol that’s the punchline
Awesome! Couldn’t quite figure out the CSS one
its been a while since i have laughed so much! thanks for posting 🙂
Very nice.
😀 double-lol
Thanks, Lazza 😀
Eheh ok. 😀 Very nice comic BTW. 😉
Dude, I suck, haha.. I just corrected the typo. Thanks!
Crap, I just realized… I corrected the typo. Thanks!
Crap, I suck!
ROFL
This might help you – https://www.google.com/search?q=undertaker+services 😀
Or
http://blog.engineyard.com/wp-content/uploads/garbage_collection.jpg (Garbage collection)
Nice Apache server LoL
lol
I love the Cascading Style Sheet!
“Lynux” wiuth a “Y”?
Awesome Stuff 😀 😀
Coool 😛
Lynux?
I’ll never program the same way again.
I think I just died of laughter.